z3rOR0ne

It does change the keyboard shortcuts to mimic Photoshop’s and it also changes the UI including icons. I don’t know, I like it better than the GIMP defaults.

Well, I don’t know if it’ll be maintained long term considering the disclaimer at the top of the README, but the PhotoGIMP plugin has always kept the interface consistent for me, and I’ve had it installed working well for 3.5 years now.

https://github.com/Diolinux/PhotoGIMP

Hey, you guys know any good alternatives to Lemmy? Lol.

I’ve heavily customized my BSPWM TWM (bash configs and scripts), NeoVim configuration (extensions and custom Lua Scripts), Suckless Terminal Emulator (plugins and C compiled config file), and Librewolf Browser via userchrome.CSS and extensions, all on Artix Linux without systemd and near daily updates with occasional breaking changes.

That said, I release small to medium scale personal Web/CLI projects in my spare time and have noticed I just move through projects faster than my peers (self learning and bootcamp web devs). I type 100wpm when given a prompt via use of a split 40℅ ortho keyboard (yes, custom keybindings via flashed firmware). So I’m all in down the configuration rabbit hole, but am loving it and feel the massive initial time investment was worth it.

Apparently that doesn’t work in NeoVim, so recently I installed the suda plugin.

Personally, I just doas nvim and then the file name that needs root access, but it’s a handy plugin in case I forget.

Fantastic breakdown and rebuttal. I concede on all points save one. But before I nit pick a bit a couple things.

One is thank you so much for tsking the time to rebuke me with such detail and finesse. I enjoy prodding people on these things because I find back and forths like this more engaging and informative when a stance is taken rather than just Q & A. I know it must bave taken you a bit of time to write up thede answers, so thank you.

Secondly, I just wanted to commend you on totally eviscerating me on the Only Office bit. i had forgotten on that point and hadn’t taken the simple step of searching beforehand. It was a poorly made point and I sincerely apologize for posing that weak argument. Yeah yeah, you’re probably thinking “the entire argument was weak”. And I’ll not try to convince you otherwise (I’d be unlikely to succeed anyways, right?).

Now, my only point of contention:

No we dont need an alternative always. We dont need 6 audio recorders, we need 1 good one that does everything right, is fast, secure and usable.

Now, my only contention here is that competition, true competition, is good. I’d say you always need at least 2 major nearly equal players in any of these fields. I don’t want there to be 1 Linux distro, I don’t want there to be 1 Office Suite, I don’t want there to be 1 package manager, and hell, I don’t want there to be 1 display protocol (and for that I am very happy wayland exists for that reason alone).

Competition over best implementations is good, and more selfishly for me in particular, more choice is good. You can argue that those choices can stifle innovation as it divides the talent base over possibly trivial minutiae of implementation (or just create a poor implementation outright), but ultimately what drove me to Linux was not my admiration for it being secure or light weight, but rather it is the availability of the many choices available.

I’d rather not see that wrangling up of the diversity that exists within the Linux ecosystem go away in the interest of conformity to a singular best practice. With all the consequences that entails.

Solid. I do authentically look forward to Wayland working out of the box for as many use cases as X does right now.

Thanks for the tidbit about tablets I actually fo uee a wacom, so this is probably not what I’m looking for. Sway has a weird workaround specific to their wm, hopefully river can port that over. Otherwise there seems to be other solutions, but I have yet to install/configure them.

A respectable rebuttal. Nicely done. Here are some of my responses.

What did you need to set for KeepassXC? The flathub version and fedora RPM just work.

QT_QPA_PLATFORM=wayland

You can modify flatpak permissions easily in KDE or using Flatseal though, to remove a lot and especially restrict keepassXC to only readwrite one directory.

I prefer my distro’s repos whenever possible. But good to know.

• Openoffice is discontinued and Libreoffice is the modern Openoffice.

But it works on X. I like using alternatives to the big players in any and all tech spaces. That’s why I use Open Office. That’s why I want an alternative office suite that works on Wayland to actually compete with Libreoffice(that isn’t the online office suites, etc. We appear to be in agreement on that one). But good point, not a Wayland problem. I’ll acquiesce to you on that one.

I have no idea why Wayland should cut down your choices. Use XOrg if you want, nobody stopping you, it is simply unmaintained for years pretty much.

I’m not arguing to use Xorg per se, though I can see my arguments being interpreted that way. I’m arguing that the switch to Wayland is more trouble than it’s worth right now for some people, and to say Wayland is ready for all is disingenuous, and to somehow look down on those who simply want to keep using X is a shitty thing to do.

There are TWMs for Wayland and they are said to work (have a look at wayblue), I use KDE and tried GNOME and both work. Use any weird old TWM through rootful XWayland if you really want to. This is not waylands problem, X.org is old spaghetticode that nobody wanted to maintain, and there still is no rise in contributions even with all those self-entitled Linux Experts complaining about their weird old nieche Desktop being abandoned.

No argument that X is abandoned, no argument it’s spaghetti code. No argument that Wayland is the future. I’m just saying it’s not quite the present either. Diversity within the Linux community is a good thing dude. Customizable work flows are awesome for everybody, that’s one of the things that makes Linux so much better than the alternatives. I can’t wait for Wayland to get to the point where it has that many weird possible workflows going on the way X does right now. That way we can have all the security and no screen tearing you want, with the insane amount of customization options I want.

Personally I want BSPWM and sxhkd on Wayland for the same low RAM cost. River is close, and I’m hoping it gets there, but unless I know c, zig, or rust, I’m not going to be able to customize it to the way I have BSPWM out of the box. Is this Wayland’s problem? Hell no! But if I have all I want on X, why switch?

Nearly (?) all development is done for XWayland, which is normally used in rootless mode, but you can use it rootfull too, and run a complete XOrg Window manager on a minimalist Wayland compositor. Brody Robertson made a video about that.

I love Brodie’s channel, and that was a great episode! That said, the fact that so much backporting has to be done through xwayland is an unfortunate necessity. If everything just works on X, and I still need a translation layer on top of Wayland to use what already just works, then why not just wait until everything just works on Wayland? Or just use both?

I know you’re not saying this, but a lot of the sentiment online seems to be ”stop using X entirely now! Wayland is the future because everybody says so. You use Nvidia? Stop! Your favorite app doesn’t work on Wayland? Just use xwayland!" The sentiment is so emphatic, it fails to acknowledge that some entire workflows have been built up around these older applications where no security breaches were encountered, little to no screen tearing was even noticed, and basically no problems occurred. Why bash on these people with this noise when at the end of the day, we just want to get shit done on our computers efficiently, and if X gets us there quicker, and Wayland doesn’t, then why switch right now? Especially considering the Wayland enthusiasts have to argue so hard to convince me it all just works when it clearly works on YOUR machine, and hasn’t for at least me and also a good number of users? Meanwhile nobody’s arguing that despite X’s flaws…everything pretty much has worked for a while now.

XWayland is automatically used for all Apps without Wayland support. I never used Gamescope but suppose this is nice, but I dont care about Gaming as I wasted way too much time of my life there. If you want to game, use uBlue Bazzite and call it a day. Its a modern Distro, based on Fedora, using Wayland, made for steamdecks and also PCs.

I actually have little to say on the state of Gaming on Wayland. I have played Cyberpunk on Steam with proprietary Nvidia drivers on Wayland and it looks okay. Once Nvidia fixes the stuttering issues that hit in 545, I’ll have no complaints on that. But I only play a single game, so I can’t speak to that too much (others have pointed out in this very chat better insights in this regard).

I never set a single flag for anything and have no idea how Wayland works, but I used it since at least 1½ years.

That’s good dude. I genuinely look forward to the day when this is the norm.

I have no idea why people would want to do that? There is literally the high likeliness of backdoors in your damn GPU driver, allowing the green team to see everything you do.

Are you going to also criticize Linux users who then use any proprietary software? Is your pure FOSS system running GNU boot and Parabola Linux? I’m not going to defend nvidia the company, but their users who want support on Linux shouldn’t be told to just chuck their old cards and go AMD. There are many good reasons why they can’t/won’t do that, and it’s not just gaming or cost. They want CUDA support for AI and also:

Why use Linux if you entire Graphics are using a proprietary black box?

Because I bought one before I knew about the Linux ecosystem and the issues with Nvidia and don’t want to contribute to Ewaste if I can help it. Yes I can afford an AMD GPU, and one day, when my Nvidia GPU craps out, I’ll buy one, but why spend the money, time, and effort to replace a perfectly working GPU solely for Wayland support? You listed some good reasons why, it’s just not enough for me personally and probably for others as well.

Wayland is ready. I have no idea of developing Apps, but I suppose just using a good Toolkit is the start. If you are lazy just use Electron, but Qt works just as well cross-platform, if you are fancy use Slint. We can argue if developing apps for Linux is ready.

I’m sorry, you’re adamant that Wayland is ready, but are willing to argue if developing apps for Linux is ready? This seems counterintuitive. Bur yeah, intuititons are often wrong, care to elucidate on why Wayland is somehow ready but app development might not be?

I think there are bigger problems like good easy IDEs (only GNOME has one) for Linux, or the packaging issue that is fixed by Flathub. Wayland is just a change.

This seems like a Linux problem and not an X or Wayland problem. But hey, the Libreoffice argument I made was based on this same unrelated logic, so I’ll digress.

Again, I’m not arguing that Wayland isn’t the future. What I’m saying is that, even now, it’s not ready yet. It’s closer than ever and there’s obviously a big push to have Wayland everywhere, so it’s coming one way or another.

I maintain a repo with a list of recommended, modern software

Thanks. I’ll check this out later.

Projects like Bluerecorder are nice and very alpha on Wayland, here I agree they are struggling to make it work but it works. Using OBS for minimalist screen recording is huge bloat.

Also will have to check this out, thanks.

Fair enough. All I know is to get something as simple and necessary to my workflow as using KeePassXC, I had to adjust a few QT flags in my environment variables. No big deal as I actually enjoy configuring my system, but it’s in my opinion Wayland will be “ready” when this sort of under the hood tweaking won’t be necessary by the user.

Here, I’ll pose a simple question that kind of gets at the heart of what I’m talking about. Libreoffice works great on Wayland right? Good, fantastic, kudos to Libreoffice, kudos to Wayland. Now, name me a 2nd office suite that works on Wayland. Just one. This is a genuine question and despite my decent google fu, I can’t find a one. I got Open Office to open on Wayland, but it doesn’t recognize the entire suite.

Now, this may seem like an unfair argument to make, as there were never many office suites available on Linux to begin with. And there’s always been people in the Linux community who will call for more uniformity, but I, like many others, love Linux for it’s extreme customizability (amongst other reasons). Wayland severely cuts down on my choices of what TWMs I can use, what DEs are available, and various widely used productivity tools like office suites.

The amount of knots Wayland enthusiasts tie themselves up in to say “but if you just configure this flag, if you just run this through xwayland/game scope, if you just don’t use nvidia, then wayland is ready” is just pointing to the fact that it’s straight up not.

And that’s not the fault of any one entity. Writing a protocol like Wayland is a massive endeavor and is needed. But developers across the board who want to provide support for Linux, are now scrambling to rewrite parts of their applications to conform to this new protocol because yes, they see the writing on the wall (especially with the latest lines in the sand drawn by Red Hat). But isn’t the fact that their scrambling to get this accomplished, and convert their apps to Wayland, an indicator that maybe, just maybe, that Wayland as a daily driver for, if not the majority, at least a reasonable part of the Linux community, not ready?

I’m not saying Wayland isn’t the future. What I’m saying is until discussions like these are the outlier, not the norm, Wayland isn’t ready.

Lol. Last time I checked you were the one shouting into the abyss that X is dead. Did the OP’s meme get under your skin so bad you had to go on a caps lock tirade about how sick you were of hearing this argument and X is dead, etc?

If your criticism had added even one iota of thought to the conversation backing up your opinion, I would have just scrolled on by. There is a plethora of easily accessible data for you to choose from to back up your argument. You could have cherry picked ANY argument you wanted about why Wayland is the future from google and just posted that instead? That seriously would have shown more respect to the people who want to have an honest discussion on the topic.

But no, instead you took the time to basically call everyone who took the time to post here stupid rather than just, y’know, move the fuck on? So yeah, I took some time out of my day to call you out for what you are, an asshat.

Now, are you gonna chill the fuck out, take your ball, and go home? Or do you have some actually constructive criticism to contribute to the conversation? Cuz seems to me outside of throwing another tantrum, those are your only two options.

Looks like I’m quitting my job because Wayland is the future asshat. How about I just run both X and Wayland on my computer, file bug reports on what doesn’t work with Wayland, and continue to use X until they fix it or you pull your head out of your own ass? Whichever comes first.

Look, the people over at Wayland made a solid protocol, sure. But for all the time and effort they’ve put into getting it to the state it’s in today, it’s going to take a long while for all the apps, DEs, and TWMs to be ready. It took so long for the Linux desktop to get to the state it is on X11, which, for all it’s flaws, seems to be easier to develop for than Wayland.

Wacom Drivers, Nvidia Drivers, DE-Agnostic screensharing, screenshot, eyedropper tools are all in various states of not working/sort of working/working on wayland. This simply isn’t the case with X11. They all just work. That’s kind of a big win for X11 over Wayland.

It doesn’t matter how light weight and more secure your protocol is if you can’t use the tools you need to get the jobs you need done, whatever those jobs are. That is literally what computers are for at the end of the day, not to lord our superiority over others because our choice of tools are somehow better.

Yes Wayland is the future, but to say “Wayland is ready” while also saying “many of the apps for Wayland are not ready” ends up meaning that wayland is NOT ready.

Until the transition between X and Wayland is seamless (no adjusting environment variables), saying we should all just move to Wayland cuz ”is the future" are engaging in the same FOMO tactics that crytpo and AI bros have been doing for years. Fuck that noise.

You are not somehow better because you use Wayland. And yeah yeah, shots fired, down votes incoming. Come at me tech daddy.

Yeah, the config syntax is exactly the same. The major difference is the wayland version of various programs can be hard to figure out with out some decent google-fu.

I’m on BSPWM on X11, but have been trying river wm and that is a much less friendly conversion than i3 to sway. I’d convert entirely were it not for certain applications still not quite working on wayland without considerable configuration (wacom tablet drivers don’t work, screenshottung and eyedropper tools are available but still need more work to be feature comparable with equivalent tools on X11).

And I’m using proprietary NVIDIA drivers which are currently stuttering real bad on the wlroots protocol since driver update to 545 (sway/river both stutter bad whenever lots of movement on the screen, I’ve tried many tweaks to my environment variables to no avail).

So…just gonna wait for app, wayland, nvidia devs to eventually make the migrate worth while.

I use runit on Artix. I wasn’t around for the init wars, but dove into the rabbit hole of Debian email exchanges, where lots of shade was thrown around because of suspicions over corporate influence on Linux, and Canonical dropping the ball because of their Licensing on their competitor init, Upstart.

I reviewed videos of Poettering going on about it, adamently placing systemd as the hill he was willing to die on.

I read the Torvaulds email complaining about Kay Sievers being an asshole. Looked at how Kay Sievers famously refused to fix early boot problems with systemd. Read Laurent Bercot’s technical break down of why even from a software design level, systemd should be called into question.

Its all interesting, and on my home desktop, I decided to only use Artix, Void, Gentoo, or Devuan over any of the others for as long as I can.

At work, I don’t care. Do I wish that runit or s6 was more predominant and widely used? Absolutely. Imho both init systems are just more minimal and their implementations are so solid, they are two of the very few pieces of software I can say are finished. No notes, no new features, and because of the minimal attack surface, barely any security patches have been necessary.

Due to their following of the UNIX Philosophy, both runit and s6’s source code can be reviewed in an afternoon, as opposed to systemd which has taken me considerably more time to parse through (though I’ll admit systemd has some decent comments in their code that helps out).

But at work, while I have my preferences and opinions, the systemd debate isn’t even close to the top of my list on arguments I’d like to have at the work place.

On Lemmy otoh, lol. 😁

Hence GrapheneOS sandboxing the Play Store. It is ironic that Google is the only phone manufacturer that allows for installing a different OS. But I suppose the fact that GrapheneOS has pushed security updates that have made it into stock Android and the fact that most users won’t bother installing an alternative OS on their pixel phones is why they allow such shenanigans.